[00:00:00] Speaker A: And so sometimes I know people get worried about the term deconstruction in different circles, but deconstruction can be a great gift because deconstruction doesn't have to mean, like, everything's horrible, it's negative deconstruction. I think of it like, I just cleaned out my closet and I pulled everything out to say, you know, do I like this piece of clothing still? Yes. Put it back in. No, I don't like that. Give it away. I think for therapists, it's okay to say, hey, I hear what this model is saying, or I hear what these mentors are saying, and I want to take a moment to say, hey, what's good for me and what's good for the clients I serve. And maybe what's not so good doesn't mean we have to throw everything out.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Welcome back to Deconstructing Therapy. If you're here, maybe your spirit, like mine, knows Western therapy isn't the whole story and that the intensity of these times is revealing both our wounds and our power. Together, we'll listen to powerful storytellers, therapists, teachers, activists, humans who carry both brokenness and brilliance. Their voices challenge the limits of Western model and open us to deeper ways of healing rooted in culture, justice, and liberation. I invite us to lean in that our spirits fully arrive and allow this to be a pause in our day. Together, we'll reimagine what therapy can become when it truly belongs to all of us.
Today I'm joined by Dr. James Hawkins, a licensed counselor, ISEF trainer, and clinical coordinator at a nonprofit practice in Northwest Arkansas. James brings a deep commitment to equity, healing, and justice into his work with individuals, couples, and communities. He's also the founder of Healing Conversations, co host of the Leading Edge podcast, and a leader in training therapists to deepen self reflection and engage more authentically in their clinical practice.
I've had the honor of working with you so many times, and, you know, you've seen two of my couples for a live consult, which has been like a wonderful experience for me. I've had learned so much from your wisdom today. I'm just excited to kind of hear more of your personal story. And what led you to this place? What got you to be a healer? What got you to kind of even evolve your practice to really bring in your cultural self into practice? I kind of want to start from the beginning. What made you. When did you first decide, hey, I want to be a therapist, want to be a healer.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: When I go into this work, that's a weird story. You know, I remember being with some friends, hanging out in San Antonio. I was in the Air Force, and we were riding around one night, just hanging out, and I looked up and I saw a billboard. And it's kind of funny when you think about was a black couple advertising for their counseling practice or something like that. And I'm just with my fellows, and we just hit. I was like, I want to do that. I. Out of nowhere, like, there was no one in my family for some reason. It was just something about that as a medic, as at my nursing.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: You were a medic?
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I was a medic. I got my LPN license. I just love sitting with my patients, walking them through hard moments. Sometimes when doctors had difficult diagnoses, they would say, hey, Hawk, could you go sit with this patient and kind of talk them through it? I remember doing my nursing rotations. Patient asking me to stay in their rooms and talk to them. And then I started to say, like, hey, I think there's something to this.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: So you always like that patient care aspect of it? Yeah, 100%.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Does either. Does that come from either one of your parents or your family systems? Is that like the.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: My. My. On my mother's side of the family, Almost everyone's involved in the medical field in some way, whether doctors, nurses, medical assistants, CNAs, that kind of thing. That's run very strong on that side of the family. With my dad. With my. My father, he is just a very inquisitive person. Uh, he's always gonna challenge thoughts and ideas to see if it stands up under scrutiny. So I think that. I think it kind of comes from both sides of those. And then the mentors that I've been blessed to have in my life have just all really taught me how to think and to question and to wonder.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: That's beautiful. And was your dad also in the medical field?
[00:03:54] Speaker A: No. I mean, yeah. You know, it's so funny. Even in the medical field, it was the doctors that really took me under their wing and would try and train me, and they were like, hey, you should do this. And I just love learning about how they picked up on patterns in people, how they learned to decipher between what people are and what's probably actually happening. And looking at the data that they're getting back from all the exams, I just. I just. I've always enjoyed that process.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't realize how much overlap there was until you just said all the, like, the patient care and the patterning, and a lot of people in the medical field don't have that personality or the personable aspect of it, but, yeah, that was the part that you were strongest in, so that's pretty cool. So was that a big decision to switch?
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. Because getting into some of what this podcast is about it, in that moment in time, I would say when I was in the military, I would take classes at night, psychology classes and things of that nature. But once I finally decided it was a cultural switch, because maybe my family and friends at the time, particularly in the black community, didn't quite. I mean, maybe always fully understand, like, what they were like. So people are gonna pay you to tell their business?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: You get paid just to talk to people? What?
[00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and the big thing in the black community is like, why are you telling me? Why are these people gonna tell you their business? You know, and so that was a little bit different, but, you know, over the years and just different things, like, my family embraces it. They honor it. They ask me questions.
We've talked about. Even just at this last family gathering, you know, some of my cousins and stuff were talking about their therapy experiences. And it's been kind of cool to watch how the field has changed, even in minority communities. I would say a big part of. In the black community was the Obamas. When the Obamas talked about going to marital therapy, that really tore down a lot of wall.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: That's true. Yeah. I never thought about that. That's pretty cool. And it's. I'm sure you changed it for so many people in your family. Mixed it in family, too, just seeing it. But it wasn't a hesitancy for you, like you got some pushback.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: No, it was the truth of who I was. I would say if I felt any hesitancy, which is probably going to get to where we're gonna go in here. At times I kept wondering, being educated in predominantly white spaces, but having mentors even in those spaces, who just believed in me and tried their best to coach me on what it meant to be a black man in this field, and particularly a black man in this field who's going to probably be working with predominantly white clients here in the south. And what does that mean? And I think my early mentors, Dr. Steele, Dr. Nay, they really questioned me on what is this going to be for you when white people sometimes might not respect you or want to hear what you have to say, or how are you going to still show up in the space? You know, And I really appreciated them making me think about that and work through that. And that's been a struggle for me at times over my career. I remember in my first counseling job, I didn't like when I would go get the client for the first time. And the reason why, and this is one of the things I think I've learned to wrestle with as a minority, is sometimes I would be trying to read their nonverbal on if they were okay finding out that their therapist was a black man for the first time. And that used to be a weird feeling. Even though I didn't know what they were thinking, it was still a question I wrestled with. It was something my nervous system went through. And then at the place I'm at now, we have a website and everybody's picture is up on the website. And I remember telling our executive director that I really appreciated that. And he kind of asked me why. And I said, I want them to have a chance to figure out if they want to see a black man or not. So that way, when I go out to the lobby to get them, I don't want that to be the first time that they find out. Now, once again, maybe it means nothing to them. I have no idea. I do think I've crossed a point in my career now. When my clients come to me, it's because they want me, they want to see me. I've established that. But I do think about what that means for therapists, maybe who are beginning out, who are still establishing themselves and their brand. I get that wrestle.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I didn't even anticipate how big that is. Like, every time walking into a lobby when you're working for a company, your nervous system must have gone on fire.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: And I'll tell you, Alifa, that was part of my impetus, like having a PhD because I love being able to go out to the lobby and be like, who's here for Dr. Hawkins? You know? Right. You know, so it's even like that title felt like it was some ways where I was working extra hard. And if I'm getting personal, I remember even my mom, we just talked about this a little while ago. I remember being that little boy, and I forgot it was something happened at school, and it just didn't feel fair. I didn't like how I was being treated by the teacher. And there were some parts where race was a part of even my academic career, where even as early as first grade, my first grade teacher was trying to convince my mom that I was slow and incapable of learning and needed to be in remedial classes. And my mom saw right through it.
Thankfully, my mom was like, no, it ain't him, it's you. And my mom, you know, in second grade, she got me into a class with a teacher who was a friend of the family, but she was a black woman who didn't let me come under that label. She believed in me. She helped me find the greatness within me. She pushed me. Thankfully, I had a family. And, you know, it wasn't just my mom, but it was my family they rallied around and they didn't let the school system derail my career in first grade.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: So you didn't get that, didn't internalize for you at all. You had that fierce advocate. Did you hear your mom's voice like when you were older and you kind of saw these non verbals.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: That's right. Even as a little kid, to watch my mom stand up for me and be like, no, no, no. And now looking back, when I look back at all the students who were on this teacher's radar, they were all black and brown or impoverished white. Now, I don't know if she meant anything by that at all, but it does make me think about even in this field, having someone who can help see sometimes the things that you can't see when you're experiencing it. And even for me along the way now, you know, I work a lot with George Fowler, Ryan, Reyna, and they're both white men. But what I appreciate about George and Ryan is they got to know me as James as a person. And sometimes when I see and experience things, George and Ryan are like, hey, hold on a second, hug. Like, and they definitely encouraged me to step in and be me. I knew my, I have black friends that do that. But it was something for them, even as white men, to say, hey, no, we see this too, or we see or we want to encourage this in you.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: And that's great that you always had your mom to be like, wait, nope, this isn't you. This is your environment.
Because we have to do that so often with people of color. When we're working in therapy, we're like, no, no, no, no, this isn't about you. Yeah. And it makes me sad for the people who didn't have that growing up right where they do start thinking it's them or was there any moment where you know, see, it sounds like you had a lot of support and even a lot of people saying, hey, you're a black man in this field. This is something you're gonna have to wrestle with. This is something you're gonna have to deal with.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: My mom would tell me she said, son, I'm sorry, but here's the way it is. You're gonna always have to work harder just to be in the conversation. And she knows. She made sure. Like, it's not fair, it's not right, but it is what it is, and what are you gonna do about it? And so she definitely, in that moment, helped me just learn. Like, look, you can cry all day, but, like, you know, I don't know, maybe it's a little. This is my, you know, this Alief. You'll pro. My protective stance. Like, no one's coming. Like, gird yourself up. Do what you gotta do. Learn what you gotta learn. And even now you've seen me in the EFT field, I take pride in the product I put forward in the work, because even if you want to contest me racially, you can't argue the product.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: But it's. It's. It's a mix, right? It's like, you've had to work harder. When I go into the lobby, I have to make sure I say doctor to distance myself. And there's so many little microways that we have to kind of get this proximity to whiteness to.
In. In order to combat that racism all the time. Was there ever a moment where you didn't know how to handle that dilemma or that it was overtly something that people were not accepting of you or.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: You know, I've had comments made at times like, that's kind of startled me, whether it's like, you know, someone's trying to, like, remember. In one event, someone was trying to commend my work, but then another colleague came in and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but this guy, he's this and he's that. And, you know, and that was like, whoa. Like, what was that? Why couldn't you let the light be here for a minute? Why did you have to automatically feel you had the right to shift it away in that way? That was an interesting moment in my career there. That's one that sticks out for me a lot of the work, though, I think, at least if I'm thinking about it, it's been a lot of internal work with me saying, james, who are you truly? Like, if you were to give a. If you were to give a metaphor, James, what would the metaphor be from you? If you were gonna reference a song or an image? Like, where is that truly coming from in you? James, when you're with your friends and you. You wanna encourage them or you want to be with them in a hard place, what would that naturally look like coming from who you are, and then I just have to bring that into the room. Now, am I always trying to make cultural considerations for all of my clients or. A hundred percent. But I also know I have to in some way be genuine, because if I'm disingenuous, my clients will feel the disconnect from me.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: That's true. And all of us have, as therapists, have to kind of make that journey because, you know, when you're not yourself, you're not you. That stuff doesn't land. You can do all the right techniques and say all the words, and when you're not coming from an authentic place. But how. How did that journey evolve for you? Because it is a whole other thing. Being a black man, I can imagine. And then being one of the only ones in the field, even as a trainer. Right. You're like, a lot of times, like, one of the only few.
I think there's only. Is there only two? Is that right?
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Well, three. There's Helena over in London, phenomenal therapist from Nigeria, Paul Guillory does great work, and he wrote the book on EFT and black couples. And then there's myself. Yes.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Okay. But I can imagine there'd be a lot of times where you're just in a room with predominantly just only white.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, 100%. 100%. Yeah.
But, you know, with that, I tell you, Alifia, it's learning to be comfortable in my own space and doing my best to not betray myself.
And what I mean by betray is try and present myself in a way that will make me palatable to others. And I wanna be careful when I say that. That doesn't mean, like, then also like, oh, I'm just like this. I can do whatever, you know, like. But it is just like, hey, this is the way I joke. This is the way I walk. This is the way I dress. This is the way I move.
This is how I see life. Like one of the famous ones. I do that sometimes. I get questioned about a lot. If you've seen any of my work. Sue Johnson teaches the intervention of proxy voice, where you talk as though you are in the client's shoes and you'll use a lot of. I like first person. So hold on. Hold on a second. Let me make sure I'm getting this. When I try my best to go through life and no one sees me. So we would do it like that. Typically.
Well, also, being a minority, I want my clients to know I'm not taking your identity away from you. So I will say things like, I will use your name to honor you. And so I might be like, so, Alethea, hold on a second.
Like, this is what it's been like. And no one sees what Alifia is going through. Nobody hears it. But I'm using your name to say, hey, I'm honoring you in your story. And it's a big thing. Um. Cause I want my clients to feel, especially my minority clients are like, I see you.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I see you. That's such a subtle shift, but it makes such. It's making a big statement.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: And so I know it's a different. It's a. It's a shift from the norm, but there is a cultural reason behind it. Behind why I do what, why I'm doing it. Now, I get the other side of that move is I don't want my client to feel like I'm just pushing them away and, like, their story's way over there. But when I just did that with you, Alifa, did it feel like I pushed you away when I said your name?
[00:15:18] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I'm saying your name with honor, with respect.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Again, it's the energy with which you're doing something, and it comes through.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Exactly. Once again, that's me as a black man. Like, I want to feel seen. I want to make sure that you're not taking my story away from you. I want to make sure that you are centered on me, and you're not going to shift the center to you and your experience.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: So, I mean, a lot of these things, it seems, like, so intuitive for you of, like, oh, no, that doesn't land. If there was two white people, they could use the eye.
There's something that doesn't fit for me. I gotta do it. But nobody's really modeling a lot of this for you. So how did you make these adjustments? Did you first do it the way you were taught and then said, ah, this isn't working?
[00:15:57] Speaker A: The story, the impetus story. And I'm sure there's many more. And I know this goes back to. I would give. I want to give credit to three people on this one. I know this sounds funny. One is Sue Johnson, George Fowler, and Ryan Reyna. Again. And I would say even. Even I could go further. Katharine Lee Ann Campbell. But with these. And all of these are white people here in some way. They could have. There's different cultural identities in that. But what each one of them trained me to do was, James, you have great instinct.
Listen to it, try it, and if it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, pivot what sue gave me. Sue was very big on innovation. I know with a lot of pioneers, people are like, well, but they said this, and they said, and they want to follow the pioneer to the literal nth degree with no consideration of growth or change. Sue Johnson wasn't that way. Sue Johnson, yes. There was a point where it was like, here's my model. Here's. And she was about the research, but sue was always like, try it. And if it works, she'd be like, jolly good, you know?
And so I appreciated sue for instilling that in me as the head of EFT for, like, try, try, just try. Find out. Figure it out.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: So it sounds like people didn't really encourage you to do it a certain way or learn it. They kept encouraging you to just listen to your inner voice and question.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Alifia. Great reflection right there. Because look what they did. They empowered my body to find it. They didn't tell me, oh, this is the way you must. And always, forevermore like this. They said, hey, James, you know the model. You know their framework. You know the target. Like when me and Ryan did a podcast interview on that, we, like, train your instincts so you can trust your instincts. So I do think minorities at times, because we've probably made so many levels of adjustments that sometimes part of the journey. Alifia, which is why I like your podcast, is you've got to find your way back to you again sometimes. And so sometimes, I know people get worried about the term deconstruction in different circles, but deconstruction can be a great gift, because deconstruction doesn't have to mean, like, everything's horrible. It's negative. Deconstruction. I think of it like, I just cleaned out my closet, and I pulled everything out to say, do I like this piece of clothing still? Yes. Put it back in. No, I don't like that. Give it away. Or, no, maybe my daughters would like to use that in their collection. Right.
But then at the end, when I put everything back, I was like, now in my closet are all truly pieces of clothing that bring me joy, and they are keepable. I think for therapists, it's okay to say, hey, I hear what this model is saying, or I hear what these mentors are saying, and I want to take a moment to say, hey, what's good for me and what's good for the clients I serve? And maybe what's not so good doesn't mean we have to throw everything out. But what's not so good? So Sue Johnson had enough security in herself to allow this, me as a black man, to look at eft and to say, hey, what's good for me and the clients I serve and what's not? And she wasn't threatened by that. So that's. I know I keep giving her a lot of kudos, but not everybody has that kind of security to allow people that space.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: Well, that makes a lot of sense. And what you have to do with your clients, too, it's like, when you're secure within you, then you can be flexible around everything else. I mean, you're very fortunate that you had those people who are secure around you and validating that inner voice. And even I can hear your mom and dad, too, where your dad's, like, really cultivating that questioning, inquisitive part. And then a mom's like, nope, this is them. This is not you. Which is so, you know, understanding what's context, what's the systems and what's not you. So that's.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Have you ever seen the video where Venus Williams, when she's a young girl and she's being interviewed by a reporter and her dad's in the background? It's a powerful clip for any of your listeners who are watching. But the essence of. I think this is what my mom did for me, which I hope my mom hears. But she's being interviewed by a white reporter, and the race does matter, because he's asking her about her confidence, and he's like, are you really that confident? He keeps doing this, like, really, really.
And Venus just does a good job as a little girl. She's like, yeah. And finally her dad emerges from the darkness, and he says, stop it. You leave that black girl's confidence alone.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: I love it. Oh, that's wonderful.
And that reminds you of your mom.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, hey. Cause I think it's like someone has to step in and say, no, hold on. There's something good there, and you're not gonna poke at it and mess with it because you don't understand it. Either you can join them and celebrate it, or you just leave it alone and walk away.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: That's great. That's beautiful. I mean, I love it. I hope your mom does see this too, because that's a very powerful voice, and you are for. And I. I just keep thinking about the people who don't have that, who didn't have that, who've internalized it, and then they're going in this field with a bit of that insecurity because they don't have that inner voice that Says, that's them. That's not you. What do you do? And also, like Asian cultures, other cultures, we're kind of trained to a little bit play small.
We can code shift more successfully than maybe a black man can. So it's like, there's a lot of nuance to it. What. What could you say to somebody like that who hasn't really cultivated that yet?
[00:20:57] Speaker A: There's a couple. Like, there's a story that bring comes back to my mind. I wish I could remember. Well, I wouldn't tell her name because I don't, but when you said Asian, I was still new in the EFT field, and I was a supervisor. And this, identified as an Asian female, came to me. And as we started working, she was in tears and crying because she had been at a training.
And the way she tried to kind of work with emotion, people said, that's not enough. You got to be like this. And it was more of this kind of like, big externally demonstrative display of emotion.
And so she felt like, well, EFT must not be a model for me because I don't show up like that. And she was weeping because she really like, I like the model. It makes sense to me. I said, hold on, hold on, that's not true. And I had to take her through an exercise. And I do a lot of self of the therapist training for this reason right here, Alifia. And this would help any therapist of any color. For her, it's like, hey, seriously, like, when you're on a good day and you show up with your friends and family, and maybe they're sad and they're hurting, but what would that look like for you as a person? And she showed. I said, give that to your clients.
Your clients will feel that, and they'll notice that if you try to be fake and do the other way, it won't land right. So what I do with a lot of therapists, and I would say is you've gotta go do some internal work. So since I'm on your podcast, I want to give this away for free for a moment. And I would want your listeners to say, you know what, if you're on a good day and maybe one of your friends is sad or they're hurting, or they're just going through something and you're really attuned to them emotionally, how do you show up with them? Is it high fives, fist bumps, dabs? Is it certain slang lingo, images, song references, movie references?
You know, like a famous thing in the black community? Like, we might joke when you leave your best friend, especially like for black women, they might be like, me and you shall never part. But every but in that community, we would know that's from the Color Purple, when Celie and Shug have to say goodbye or when the sisters have to say goodbye to each other. Right. And so I would say, find what that is naturally to you on your good day. And that's who you are when you want to celebrate people in your life for doing something good and big. How do you do it? Do you like going with your bad self? Come on now. Like, what is that? And then be you and your clients will learn to appreciate that. Or even if for some reason it doesn't settle for your clients, that's okay. But at least you are congruent. And they get a chance to be congruent with themselves because if it doesn't work for them, they find another therapist. And that doesn't mean anything bad about you.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: Oh, I love that one so much. Because what you're saying is you being you is still more important than you connecting with that client.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Oh, you being you is the most.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Important instrument to heal for you and for the client. Right. And so you losing yourself at the service of trying to connect, but you're not going to connect anyway.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: That's right. Or I'll say this. I think it takes more mileage, like even the research where they talk about it takes more energy to suppress emotion than to express emotion. I think that's what happens a lot to. In the minority experience when you feel like you have to overly. Because I think every therapist in some way represses it sometimes. Like, I better hold that in. Cause I can't say it that way. But. But when you overly do it, I think it can. I think, I wonder. This is like a. A research hypothesis. How does that affect longevity in the field for minority therapists when they constantly make all these adaptations in order to exist in the world of others?
[00:24:18] Speaker B: That's so valid. That's so valid. I think that's what burnout is in general. Right. It's like when you keep suppressing yourself. That's why the self of therapist work is so, so vital. You know, I was talking to a bunch of therapists and they didn't. Haven't heard that word before. Can you describe a little bit about what self of the therapist work is?
[00:24:35] Speaker A: The best way I've learned to describe it so far, and it does. It has a lot of the eft attachment flair to it. But self of the therapist for me is I am Thoroughly connected to myself and my nervous system in a way that my body and my way of being now becomes the thermostat in the room. I say therapists are thermostats, not thermometers, because a thermometer only reads the temperature. As a therapist, I'm attuned to what my body is sensing, what my eyes are seeing, what my ears are hearing, what proprioceptively, what's happening when my body gets tight in scary moments. And I'm using all of that as information to tell me about what's going on in the environment of the counseling room. But then also because I'm a thermostat, not only do I read the temperature, I also learn to use myself as a therapist to adjust the temperature. So that might be something like, whew.
So, Aletheia. Wow. Wait, hold on. Right as you said that, like, it just. I feel like it just in. My chest sank. But see, that's me. I'm being authentic. By the way, I'm not like, I allow your story to touch me, because now I'm picking up on your signal, on your emotional signal, and I'm using my body to then reflect to you. Hey, Alethea, your story was so important. It touched me. It brought this sadness that sunk in my chest. Now, it might not be the same for you, but then this is Katharine Ream's influence. But those are my words. I wonder what it's like inside you, Alethea. And I'll tell you, that helps me out a lot with my minority clients, particularly. Now, let me hear. When I'm saying this, I think about my black clients, because in the black experience, historically, black people have learned, had to learn for survival how to adjust their body experience to make white bodies feel safe around them, to not be threatening, to not make them uncomfortable. And so what I see for a lot of times with my black clients is they are even guarded in their emotional experience, or there's been a lot of things where they think that emotions aren't for them. So a quote. Sorry if I'm going roundabout. Rasma minicum. He wrote the book My Grandmother's Hands. He does a lot of trauma work. But one of his quotes that I really liked is he says, trauma decontextualizing people looks like culture. In other words, if we just take the trauma and we take it out of its context, we could be, oh, that's just who we are. Because I'll hear that from my black clients. You know, we don't do emotions like that. James. I'M like, no, I hear what you're saying, but that's also there's a historical reason for that. And what I usually, what I push with my client, my black clients, is this is still an effect of racism. Part of your healing journey is taking back what was taken from you and that's the right to your fullness of your humanity. You are a person with emotion, whether you acknowledge it or not. That's one element of that. So when I'm working with my clients is trying to help them and therapists as well too is how do you take back the fullness of your experience and use that as a valuable tool in the therapeutic process? And there is room for you to take up space no matter who the client is or from you. So I'm here in northwest Arkansas. I mean we have a lot of well to do business people. So I could be sitting across from a high powered lawyer, a VP for Walmart or whatever, but I'm still going to be jamed. I've learned that and I've come to that place. You picked me for a reason and I'm gonna be me. But it took a while to get there. I remember feeling small in front of some of my clients, like I'm not worthy to be in the room with you. And I'm like, where's that coming from? And I'm like, oh, that's that trauma from the past. That's even like I don't. I have this negative view of self even in a based in a racial way about myself. And I have to confront those parts of me and not shame myself and not also like overly chastise myself, but just say, hey, glad I caught it now I can grow.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Well, that's kind of the essence of the self of therapist work or just being aware of it. And then you. What you can do. And I love the way you talked about trauma right now because that's so nuanced, the cultural trauma. You know, there's so often we can just either pathologize it as the whole culture, think it's bad and then want to change the person or colonize them to this other western view of it or like what you just did so. Or just say, oh, it is your culture. Let me just accept that. Right.
And not try to change it.
You know, it's going to be inappropriate for me. But what you did so beautifully, it's like, no, we're going to disentangle the cultural trauma from the culture itself and we're going to honor the protective strategies of It. But no, we're growing past it.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: There we go. Yeah, Good nuance. That's a full answer. Well, if you just did, let me highlight what you said. So I don't just say, you know, there's part. I say no here. But like, I will give you a couple rounds of I get the good reasons. That makes sense.
And then what function has it served you? Because it does serve a function. And so I want to honor the good reasons. But then I also, on the other side for them is I want to highlight, but what does it cost you and is it worth it?
[00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And we do this, you know, as EFT therapists, we do this move all the time with the just regular protective strategies. But often I don't think people can zoom out and do it on the systemic lens and from the cultural perspective, but you got to. And thank you for demonstrating that and giving such a beautiful example. It's wonderful. And just the fierceness that I feel for me, like, I am going to be me. I don't care. And when I lose my way for a second, I catch it. I'm like, oh, nope, going back to me. And that's the most important thing.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: If that's my talk. Like, you know, as EFT trainers, we have to go not only train this incredible group of high caliber therapists, especially, you know, you come to the New Orleans area and there's a lot of great people, including you. That's why I got to work with your couple. But then we got to do these live demonstrations with couples we've never met. And the one you brought was a doozy.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: I know, like, he's gonna hate me every.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: No, but that ended up being a beautiful session. But you know what, if you wanna know how I talk to myself before I go into those scary moments. And this is my friend Ryan. I wanna give him credit. I remember we were in Memphis, Tennessee, and we were gonna do it. He said, james, I feel very confident if James shows up in that room as James, the session's gonna be great. He challenged me, he said, what is it gonna take for you just to show?
And so that's what I taught myself through.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Let me ask you this about doing a live. Do you have to. Does one part of your brain have to be on the audience and then one part, because you are doing it to teach people.
So do you keep that in mind or do you throw that away completely and you're just like. You act as if you're just in session.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Okay, the first, my first goal is to forget the Audience and just zero in on the couple. And then, and not even I say zero in on the couple, but also calm my body down into the room. And literally the way I picture it is, is I'm going to take up space. James is going to fill the whole room and you're going to feel me take over the room. The client's going to feel it. I'm just, I'm going to allow myself to fill the space. And then at some point when I'm regulated and I'm with them, I do sometimes think about the group and like it might have been just something I explained to you or something I know I need to explain to you when I come out the room and I almost will inside of me, I'll almost make it a little bit. So right here, right now is the place where you get stuck and this is where you need help.
Right? Good. Because I'm trying to teach the group. See, that's focus.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: That makes a lot. I always wonder about that because I'm like, you can't just ignore it because you are trying to teach. So it seems like a lot of pieces to hold that to me seem conflictual. But I like how you said that, like you center yourself first and when you're grounded, then you can kind of bring in your eye a little bit to the other.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: I have to think about all the things like, you know, because typically these live couples, they're going to be more times than not they're white. And what is it like, especially if it's a white therapist who brought them, are they going to be comfortable seeing a black man and all those kinds of things. But I just make it a point like if, if I'm comfortable with me, I help my clients become comfortable with me. If I'm not completely comfortable with me, then your clients, I think they pick up on that and they're going to feel like, why are you nervous?
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Like what's going on here as a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, that's so valid. Right? I mean, I just keep taking away over and over again how you journeyed on like just relentlessly being you at all costs, it doesn't matter. And then you've surrounded yourself with people who validate that. So that's beautiful. And I know we've touched on this a bunch throughout this whole thing, but if you could just pull out one or two nuggets of what you want to send somebody who really hasn't had that security yet and is doing this work, what would that be?
[00:32:44] Speaker A: So if I were looking at that person right now, and they were across from me. And they're like, james, I didn't have that mom who sent that message. I didn't have the Sue Johnson, George Valerie, Ryan, Raina, Kathryn, Ram, Leon Campbell kind of experience.
I would say it's going to be a journey, and sometimes it can be scary as you learn different things about you. And here's the hard part.
I would say you do need to find at least one or two other people that can honestly see you, because it's hard to know who you are without other people reflecting you to you.
So I do think we need other people on the journey and then just begin to like, so some of it, if I'm going to take you back into my internal work, I would listen to myself, how I'm talking to myself in comparison to either my white colleagues, my white clients.
I would listen to what I'm saying about myself, and I'm like, wow, why do you keep having these messages of whether inferiority or acquiescing?
And then I just have to say, like, where is that coming from? And what do you need to do within that? And then I had to do some work on, like, what I appreciated with George that he did to me is he made me believe in my instincts. So he kept like, well, James, what do you think? What is your body? Read what's happening here? And he would take me through scenarios of practicing that and doing that. Ryan Rainer, he would encourage me, like, the way, you know, just, like, just show up as you. So. So part of it is you gotta find people who are willing to do that journey with you while you also journey with yourself.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: And I like just the internal questioning of, wait, what is keeps coming up, and just be curious about it and.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Get a good supervisor who's willing to do the journey with you. Right? Cause, like, I imagine you leafy, you'd probably be a great supervisor for something like that. So that way it's not only like, watching the clinical work, helping them learn about their. Their superpowers as a person.
Like, I remember this one therapist I work with in Atlanta. I love her. Her name is Crystal, but Crystal's from Detroit. What I like about Crystal is she's unapologetically herself as a black woman.
And so in eft, we have this way about showing up and reflecting things.
And so, you know, usually in eft, it's like, this is so hard. But Crystal, the way she does it, as a black woman from Detroit, she'll be like this hard, bro.
And I'm like, crystal, and like, so even hearing like different people and how they do it, it also gave me permission to say, you know what? How would I do it? A lot of it is you looking at yourself, reflecting on the internal messages. And even as therapists, what's your working model of self with your minority clients? What's your working model of self with majority clients? And like, what's happening there? And then also inviting people to really see you and know you and help call the best parts of you forward.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: That's wonderful. That's beautifully said.
I think that's a great note to end on. Is there any resources, anything that you would like to give a shout out to where people can learn more about you or your work?
[00:35:28] Speaker A: That's funny. Even there, it's like, why? Why they want to learn about me. Yeah. If you ever want to follow me, you can go to my website doc hawklpc.com you can find like different trainings I'm doing or if you want to reach out to have me come to a speaking event where I could do a self of the therapist. You know, I would love to do like a. I never thought about this. I'm putting this out here on your podcast. Really? I'd love to do a self of the therapist in the minority experience because I do think there's some nuance to it and maybe that's something we need to do. We need to put that together Leafy just to give them. And I think it is, is while the process is similar in some ways, it's a vulnerability and a transparency that maybe sometimes it's hard to do in the public eye.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and hopefully we get to work together again soon.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: And I want to make sure. I want to say thank you to you for doing this.
You know, I did not know that this podcast was out there like this, but now I know. I thank you for giving me some space to have these stories to be told so other people can hear them and learn from them. So that's why I'm glad I'm going to make sure I take this podcast and post it all over my stuff.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: I appreciate that giving me a review my story. So thank you for what you're doing. Alexia series.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: Appreciate you join the movement and keep the conversation
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