[00:00:00] Speaker A: I am not exaggerating when I say astrology saved my life. Things that I hated about myself, things that I doubted myself about, a question, you know, to the point of like, you know, talk about rumination, talk about anxiety, talk about really, you know, not being able to honor yourself or love yourself. Astrology helped me understand those parts and accept it, accept myself.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Welcome to Deconstructing Therapy, Transforming Therapy and the therapists who lead it. Let's deepen, dive into conversations reshaping therapy into a powerful tool for healing, liberation and systemic change. Join us as we challenge the status quo, reimagine care and celebrate therapists breaking barriers. Let's transform therapy together.
I'm so excited to have my good friend Dr. Trillena Eugene on the podcast today. Dr. Eugene is a licensed professional counselor and supervisor, licensed marriage and family therapist, advanced trained emotionally focused therapist and holistic therapist based in Louisiana. She is the founder of Sage Holistic Counseling and Wellness where she specializes in story informed trauma therapy and trauma focused care. Using a blend of intuitive guidance and practical tools, Dr. Eugene helps clients explore the emotional, mental and spiritual layers of their experiences through an integration of both traditional and non traditional approaches to psychotherapy. She she is dedicated to fostering resilience, empowerment and holistic wellbeing.
[00:01:30] Speaker C: I'm so excited to have you. I know we've known each other for several years now and I've kind of seen your evolution as a therapist, which has been beautiful to watch, but you are one of the most intuitive therapists I think I really ever have met. It's been such an honor to just even know you. But what I've seen, even just in your evolution is how you've integrated more and more of your spirituality, astrology, like different practices. I mean you, that's always kind of been a part of you, but to me I've seen you really own it and embrace it in this different way. And I would love to hear that story of that integration today. Where do we begin? Like, has that always been a part of you?
[00:02:12] Speaker A: I would say yes in some ways. You know, even as a child, I was always into like sacred science, sacred sciences, esoteric, you know, type shows. And I was always like attracted to it. But growing up as a Christian, you know, in Southern Southern Baptist, Christian, that wasn't really allowed, you know, in some ways. And so I would say like, kind of like sneaking it a little bit, but not necessarily being able to ask questions or really understanding how it's used. But I would always, you know, as a newspaper, as a child, like reading the horoscope. Always a part of that.
[00:02:47] Speaker C: The horoscope. And is that stuff. Is that against Southern baptism?
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Well, I'll answer the question in two ways. So I would say yes, you know, traditional Southern Baptist. Yeah, absolutely. You know, astrology, anything that, you know, is kind of outside of the views of Christianity could be considered, you know, not. Okay, evil. There are different sects, Right. Of Christianity. And so I have experience all of them, you know, from like, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, non denomination. I've, you know, experienced a lot of them. And so the rules kind of change depending on that particular leader or that particular group. But, yes, in my family, for the most part, that was not.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Was that something that you integrated for yourself? That this is what I believe in. And then did it feel like a disconnect for you when you were drawn to spirituality? Or was it something like, oh, this is just what my family does, but I don't really buy into it.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: It's interesting thinking about that question. And so I would say, you know, let's bring forward into it. I don't blame it all on my mother.
And so, you know, she is. She would consider herself to be, like, you know, a spiritual person, definitely a spiritual advisor. You know, in her family. She's definitely like, the one that's always, like, preaching and doing a lot of that. But my entire family, you know, it's like the church, you know, is very, very important. However, though, my mom is the one that dabbled even outside of the, like, Southern Christianity aspect of it. So, you know, Pentecostal, those type of things. So there are some things that, like, maybe in the traditional Baptist church, my grandmother's church, that we would not necessarily do. Uh, I did experience some of that in other. Other churches or, for example, you know, I was always able to celebrate Halloween in my grandmother, like, my grandmother's church and in my family. However, eventually when we got to, I think it was Pentecostal, like, we weren't able to celebrate Halloween. You were asking that question. I'm just like, well, you know, my mom kind of exposed me to this evolving and changing based off of the information that you are provided. And she was actually like, okay with that. Now it all still was in the realm of spirituality, I mean, Christian, but.
[00:04:54] Speaker C: There was a little bit of going outside and questioning. And so you witnessed that from her.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: A model differently? Exactly. I would say that for sure.
And so in college, you know, I would say that's probably where, like, my first spiritual awakening happened. And I do believe we have many different types of Spiritual awakenings. And it was really just being exposed to new information. And I remember being warned by a lot of my family, you know, my aunts and my grandmother, like, all right, now you go up there by those people and. And, you know, God is still God.
Exactly right. And so it's like.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Were you in New Orleans for college?
[00:05:34] Speaker A: Yes, I went to New Orleans, yes. I was in at Uno, actually.
And I took this course. It was an elective, I think I was just kind of, like, filling, you know, filling things up, especially after Katrina, you know, just trying to kind of reshuffle things. And there was this course. I don't remember the name of it, but it was like the Bible as literature, something to that effect. Right. So, like, just taking the Bible and actually not using it as this, like, spiritual document, but like, using it as, like, a way to understand history and understand literature. So I would say that really kind of opened me up. I love history. I love period pieces, even watching TV or movies. I'm always interested in history. And so I would say that, you know, if I could go back to school, I probably would be like an anthropologist. You know, I really just, like, love studying different people in that way. But my love for history is probably what influenced my spiritual thoughts now, I would say.
[00:06:29] Speaker C: And so when you got to experience the Bible in that way, it gave you that historical lens to it.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it was kind of like stepping out of myself, stepping out of all the things that I was taught. I used to ask a lot of questions. I was a spiritual child, you know, even though, you know, I was very young. And we would be at church a lot, you know, like Wednesday, Thursday, Tuesday, Sunday, maybe multiple times on a Sunday where my mom might be speaking at different churches. I was in tune. I was curious. I would ask questions. I remember feeling, you know, what I would call, like, the love of God. I remember feeling those things at a really young age, not really fully being able to describe it, you know, talking to God a lot, like, God was my friend. And so, you know, even some of those things, I remember, like, being taught very early in Bible school, like, you can't question God. And I remember being like, I'm going to do it. And I did. And so I couldn't help it. But I would ask a lot of questions that a lot of the adults cannot answer. You know, watching these other type of TV shows, like Charm and, you know, some other shows. I was just. It kind of answered some things that I had, but, like, just other questions. Just about, like, I remember I asked my mom, one time I was like, well, you know, you say that like you have to get baptized in order to go to heaven. And she's like, right, yes, yes, yes. And I'm like, so what about the child that's, like, in the mountains, that never heard of. Right. Like, in the jungle? And I remember her, and she's like, thinking. She was like, well, yeah, I was like, so, like, that child is not gonna go to heaven. And I remember her first answer. She was like, well, no, baby, you know, based off of what the Bible said, that child. And she saw my face and she was like, but, but. But I don't know if I believe that. So, you know, again, when I think back, you almost made.
[00:08:15] Speaker C: You made her think in question.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. She actually told me that as an adult. You know, one time we were in a car, and she was just like, I know that, you know, you've changed some of your beliefs, but, you know, I'm not too far off from where you are. And I'm just like, oh, let's talk about that.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: That's pretty awesome.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: But, you know, there's always that line that goes there.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: That's interesting because you got that from your mom, but you kind of took it further.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Exactly. That's so interesting. That sounds about right, though.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: That's that curiosity and being able to question things and step a little bit outside of the box.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: That's it. That's it. Yeah. That was very important to me, to be in a space where I can ask questions. It's just important.
[00:08:54] Speaker C: You said, oh, I was watching these things, like, charmed and the spiritual stuff, and that answered something that felt like it was missing. What. What felt like it was missing that got answered there.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: I would probably say, like, when you talk about me being intuitive, I felt things that I don't feel like could be explained by, you know, the people around me. I was young in my family, giving adults advice. I was always the person that people would come to. People would just gravitate to me. You know, I would always be nominated as, like, the babysitter. And I remember thinking like, you don't really know me that well, but you're like, you're leaving your children with me. Those type of things. Things that I would use astrology to describe, you know, my son being in cancer, just having that, like, empathic ability, intuitive ability, just kind of feeling things in my stomach, knowing when something wasn't right. Being young and dumb, as they would say, right. And having fun, but, like, having a feeling like, woof. I think we should leave. And I'm telling my friends, like, I think we should leave. And they're like, no, Jalena, don't be the party pooper. And I'm like, I really think we should leave. And then finding out there was a drive by shooting, you know, right after.
[00:09:59] Speaker C: So you always had that since you were little and people knew that. I can't even begin to describe it, but there's been so many times where you have felt something in me before I felt it or realized it, and you would tell me something, and I'm like, it didn't. Didn't make sense to me. And then like a week later or something, it all, like, would start clicking the place. How the hell did she even understand that I was there or that I needed to hear a certain phrase? I mean, I'm like, it blows my mind.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: You actually taught me some of that, Alicia. Like, you taught me that, you know, I had to learn that. This is what I mean by why I'm so passionate about doing this work and why I feel like even the next group of counselors, you know, that that's coming out are mental health professionals. It's like, we have that. Many of us have that on varying levels, but I don't feel like I was taught how to hone that. So, you know, I believe I have done harm. I believe that I have used that skill, you know, not appropriately, you know, not realizing that I can just tap into people's skills stuff and realizing I don't always have permission for that, or sometimes realizing that maybe I'm moving too fast for my clients. Maybe I'm getting information that they had not yet given to me, you know, even in my friendships and my relationships, like, I've had to learn. And I appreciate the validation when you guys will come back and be like, hey, you know, when you said that, I didn't hear it. But then a week later, I'm just like. Like, oh, that's what's going on with me. Right? And so you've seen. You've seen me learn that about myself. You know, I would. I would always. Like, I'm usually right about things is what I usually say.
[00:11:32] Speaker C: But I can see how you're saying it can be overwhelming to even have that third sense all the time. And you had to cultivate it and I guess be delicate. I guess what you're saying, right, of, like, how do I give this information? I know I'm picking up on something. I don't want to talk myself out of it.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: That's a big part of it, not wanting to talk myself out of it. How do I honor that? But at the same time realizing that, like, you know, you don't know what you don't know. Right. How many times have someone said something to you? Think about an elder that just knows things enough, and they've said that to you, and you're just like, that's not happening in this relationship. I know this person. And they're like, oh, I was doing that at like 10, you know, and not understanding why that was the case, you know. Yeah.
[00:12:14] Speaker C: So how did you hone it? How did you honor it? That, no, this is real. I can. I'm going to respect when my body's telling me something.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: I have, you know, what they call this, like a terminal. I have a terminal degree in my field, right? And so I've gone as far as, you know, you can technically go.
And I still felt like I was missing something. Even in my own personal work. I believe in therapy, you will always hear me say, we need therapy. I will always be in therapy. And I felt like things were missing. I felt like my clients, you know, were missing things Again, as I, as I stated, I've gone through, like, a couple of spiritual awakenings. So, like, you know, after relationships, after divorces, I would elevate in those ways. Because that is how we elevate, right? We, like, go to the dark, right Underground. That seed is growing and we have pressure underneath, and hopefully we're doing all the things. Watering sun. So I stumbled upon those type of things, and then I would, like, learn some things like, oh, that's helpful. Oh, that's helpful. Right. And so astrology just kind of came a little bit stronger. And then I started working with an astrologer. There's certain kind of, I call them, like, holistic assessments now that I use that I was exposed to, you know, years ago, like the Enneagram or Human Design, But I didn't have time to study that stuff because that wasn't on the NCE or that wasn't going to be what my dissertation was about, right? And so I was exposed to those things. I was always, again, interested in them, but not really fully being able to dive into them. And so after I got some of these degrees and I'm, you know, experiencing some of these other things, I'm like, okay, this is good stuff. But I felt like I was missing things. And so it was my own personal work that I was doing that I realized, oh, this is so helpful. You know, I am not exaggerating when I say Astrology saved my life. Things that I hated about myself, things that I doubted myself about, a question, you know, to the point of like, you know, talk about rumination, talk about anxiety, talk about really, you know, not being able to honor yourself or love yourself. Astrology helped me understand those parts and accept it, accept myself.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: Because of the stuff you're saying, it seems like such core, but so many of us struggle with, right. The rumination and the self hatred and the self doubt and the anxiety and you're right. I think there's a lot of people who go into traditional kind of therapy and it just feels like it's missing the mark or it feels like you have to keep working on it or keep doing it to really feel somewhat better. But there's something not really hitting to the core.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: That's it, that's it. At the end of the hey, like again, you and I talk about like there's just this balance between this science world and these words and validating in this other world. For example, like doing my own trauma work. Deep into it, I realized like, I think I have adhd, right? Like, I think this is really a thing and me not realizing that if I would have continued on the path without really accepting adhd, there are so many things that I would have labeled as my trauma and undeveloped stories. That was really just my adhd. That hyper vigilant part of me, the part of me that when I turn my computer off and I'm like, what's the next thing? That wasn't necessarily because, you know, my trauma has taught me to be a caregiver and I just can't, I don't love myself, right. It's just like I have a lot of energy and you know, I have to learn how to like focus those things.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: And so how did you experience that differently? And I think a lot of people who have ADHD have that experience. And if you go to traditional therapy or somebody who's not equipped to understand that they are going to just put it in a trauma lens or an attachment lens of like, oh, this is a part of you that's over functioning and that needs to just calm down or be processed or whatever.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Go do more self love, go. You just need to love yourself a little harder, train. And I'm like, I love myself, I take care of anybody else but, but I can't, you know, I can't sit down. You know, this just happened around New Year's. We were like having fun. My sisters and I, we took some meals and they were like Sitting down. And I was, you know, kind of looking around, looking at the time, waiting, you know, waiting for 12. And I. I'm going to get the champagne glasses. Then I wipe the champagne glasses, then I check the freezer to see if the champagne is in there. Then it's like, well, let me just open it. Let me just get these napkins out. And they were just like, trelayna, sit down. Why can't you sit down? And I was just like, right. Why can't I sit down? Right? And then understanding that, you know, being a woman of color, being a black woman, being an indigenous origin, like, I actually understood that a lot of these goals, a lot of these degrees, a lot of these, like, check that list, check that mark. And staying busy, it was not diagnosed because, you know, those were good things. You know, coming from a first generation family, let alone getting. Going to college, let alone Getting a PhD was like a big thing. Everyone saw my accomplishments as like, go, Tralena. Right? Like, you're making us look good. Not understanding that it had nothing to do with my trauma necessarily, or nothing to do with the fact that when I was first generation and this, this was something that my family did not do, but it had everything to do with the fact that I could not rest, I could not sit down physically. I could not do it. So after all the therapies and all, I mean, thousands of dollars in therapy and. And then learning all these different models, and I'm just like, so what's wrong with me? Right? And then that's the thing, right? So what's wrong with me? Why do I feel broken? Why do I still have all this anxiety? And then learning that with adhd, you know, anxiety and depression, you know, there's. That's. That's typically misdiagnosed, right? It's just like, oh, I have the anxiety because I'm feeling all of these things. I have the depression because I'm struggling with motivation and then not wanting to take medication, and then the stereotypes and the shaming around that. It was some of that work, again, when I say it was like relief, this ADHD diagnosis, it took so much pressure off me to perform.
And then kind of integrating it with, like, understanding my enneagram and understanding my human design type, those things helped me not always feel that it was this unresolved story or, you know, again, like Freud would say, my mom's fault.
[00:18:32] Speaker C: So before, when you had unexplained energy with either get validated by everybody and saying, oh, no, that's great, you're Just accomplishing more. And you know, our capitalistic mindset of like productivity is wonderful. That's the FB or it would get shame to the. This is your mother's fault. This is your caregiver. We're over functioning. You can't do this. And so when you started seeing this energy as something more innate in you, how did you experience that differently? What do you do with it?
[00:18:56] Speaker A: I mean, it's going to sound a little cliche, but you know how they say honor is. I just was listening to something before they were talking about like, what does that actually mean to like sit with your emotions? It means I'm not trying to fix it. Like I'm getting chills right now, right? Like it means I'm not trying to fix it. It means I'm just going to sit with it. So sometimes it looks like I am just sitting with it. Sometimes it means when I need to process it. There's this really good book called Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey. I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly. Love that book. Right. So like sometimes I am processing through the. Is it capitalism? Is it this like machine that I've been conditioned to believe that I have to be doing something? Is it my attachment stuff? Sometimes it's just not any of that. Right. And I'm just like, this is just the way my body is. And sometimes it means I need something. So I might go outside and literally put my feet in the grass. Cause I need to ground. Or sometimes I just need to be uncomfortable and just let it pass through me or forget eventually forget that it's happening or zone out and Netflix and chill. My body actually knows what I need. It was actually some of that work too in doing a lot of work around trauma, informed therapy and then being exposed to somatic therapy. You know, we have a really good friend that like teaches a lot of. Teaches us a lot about that. Right. And so realizing that even as a, as a black person, like there's so much dissociation from my body going to some of these trainings and you're just like, no. And then ask your client, where do they feel it in their body? I'm just like, my clients are not going to be able. I can't answer that question.
[00:20:27] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot of people don't even know.
Don't even know. But I want to slow down for a moment because I love the way you just described how you accept it because a lot of people say that, oh, just accept your emotions, sit with your emotions and A lot of times when we say that, we still think we have to understand them. And you don't. The way you described it right now, like, maybe it's coming from my trauma, maybe it's coming from my attachment history. Maybe it's. And she. It was almost like, I don't. I don't need to figure that out, but it's still there and I need to just validate. My body is telling me it's there. And it sounds like you just leaned really hard back into your body with it of like it's here. I'm not going to judge it. I'm not going to applaud it to death or shame it. It is here. It is just here. What does it need? Sounds like you just let your body lead you there. I'm not going to go to my head and try to figure this out.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Yes. Which is hard. You know, one of my teachers this morning, I was listening to A Stormy Grace. She's an astrologer. And one thing she says, she's like, you know, your body never lies. Your body never lies to you. That's not what I would believe it would be like. No. You know, especially experiencing all these sensations again as a cancer who feels all these things in her stomach or, you know, as a generator. And if I'm using the terms of human design before feeling in this part of our body. But there has been times when I felt something and I did something and it didn't work out. But that may not necessarily mean that, like, you needed to do something about it. Right. Even right now, there's just like a lot of things happening astrologically. Like that doesn't necessarily mean that we do something about it. Right. Mercury is in retrograde and it just actually means you should slow down and just go back and review. And the information that's coming up right now, this is actually not the time to do anything about it. Right. It's actually time, you know, it'll be. But it's just time to receive. And I think, you know, I talk a lot about, like the divine feminine and divine masculine. Like the divine feminine, which I believe we all have a part in. Right. Are part of us. Sometimes we just need to receive. Sometimes that information is just there for you to get the download. And you are not supposed to, as you say, process it, you know, go up to our heads. And I get. We have good reasons for it, why we would want to do that. I don't think we're taught to just sit and be uncomfortable. You and I talk a Lot about, you know, the Jedi. Right. Justice in the work, racing, equity, inclusion. And oftentimes what we're telling people is, I don't want you to fix this for me. Like, I know you said something that made me uncomfortable, but you don't have to fix this for me. But we are well just be uncomfortable together.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: And there's so much power in just being uncomfortable. And I can just hear from the way you're saying, I can hear you honing this power in the way you're talking about it. You're like, yeah, it was always there since I was little. And then when I accepted it, I'm like, okay, cool, I have the superpower. Let me go run with it or do something. And then it took you even another layer of growth to be like, no. Yes, it's there. I can accept that it's real. I can accept that it's valid and I have this ability, but I still sit with it, just really sit with it. And I can. There's probably layers of how to really get there.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Yes. And again, I want to reiterate that is not easy. I think every day I'm learning how to do it a little bit better, a little bit differently. Sometimes I need help with it, you know, sometimes I need my astrologer or my therapist, my spiritual, you know, mother to remind me. And then sometimes I, like, I can remind myself or sometimes I do something that doesn't feel right and I'm like, that wasn't the answer. I just feel it's okay.
[00:23:49] Speaker C: That's good too. It's like, let me try this out. If I make a mistake. Okay, keep on moving and just listen to your body. Did you feel like a disconnect from. I mean, the way we're taught? Astrology stuff is always stigmatized a lot in the mental health field. I think there's more acceptance of it now. Not where we need to be, but it's getting there. But I mean, when we were in school and stuff, it feels like it's almost two completely disconnected worlds. So how did you get to this integration piece? Did you fully step into the way the Western model was and then have to evolve to this? Did you always integrate those pieces in your work?
[00:24:22] Speaker A: I think what I did was call it different things. Eventually, when I was like fully into astrology, when I was using it in my day to day practices, you know, talking about it with people that I felt comfortable with, I was saying the same thing, right. Like, I might even ask a person, you know, they're like, when's Your birthday. Oh, okay. You're a Virgo. Okay, gotcha, right? And I, like, may not necessarily say that out loud, but there might be something that I'm using that information around. What's really eerie is just that, like, people found me. You know, I started to notice that, like, it's like, once you put it out there, once you fully step into yourself, you'll realize that the world will validate you. And then I was the problem. I realized that I was holding on to these identities. I was afraid to tell my colleagues. You know, they're like, losing astrology. With my clients, I would say to some people that I feel safe with, I remember you were one of the first people that, you know, I would say to as, you know, like, that was not okay. I was afraid that people wouldn't refer to me anymore. I was worried about what my other clients would think. You know, people tell us their. Their truth. In our sessions for a while, I was kind of doing this thing where it's like, well, this is kind of what I also offer, if you're open to it. Because I, you know, I was taught, like, you cannot just put yourself. You project your beliefs on your clients. And I still believe that. And at the same time, I'm now at a place where it was taking so much of my energy to be this, like, fragmented version of me. There's, like, the trilane of the professional, and then there was this, like, spiritualist. In some ways, I felt like I was being misleading to my clients by just being able to compartmentalize. Some ways, I felt like I was validating them. But what I realized as having some health issues, that that was actually killing me, right? That, like, the burnout of this association in so many areas of my life, I couldn't do it anymore.
[00:26:13] Speaker C: Wow. Okay. I really want to slow down with that because you just named so many things that I've went through that I think even got clearer for me in my head as you said that. Because the dilemma of, okay, if I'm fully myself and I do this astrology and this is who I am, it feels more whole to you, but am I projecting all this onto somebody else? You know, we're taught, and for good reason, it is valid. You want to be where they're at. If they're using spirituality, we'll use their spirituality. If they're more secular, okay, we'll use what youth were there. I used their strength for them, which is so valid. But then it starts grinding at who you are. It starts, like, taking away from your own integrity, the more you have to not have it in the room.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: And then when you said, you know, I realized like, that was a part of my identity. Like I wanted to be the type of, I saw myself as this eclectic person. Even when trying to choose a theory in school, I was like, I like all of them, you know, and so I don't really like, like to be boxed in. I am a traditionalist, but I don't like to be boxed in. And so I like the part of my identity that said that I can do, you know, the secular way, I can do traditional, I can do non traditional. And again, it's a trade off, not really realizing the energy that I was using to take all of those different identities. Right.
[00:27:27] Speaker C: So how, how do you, does that show in the room? Say there's somebody who's not spiritual, who doesn't believe in astrology. And then this is a core part of who you are and you want to honor who they are and meet them where they're at. How do you deal with that dilemma in the room?
[00:27:40] Speaker A: Surprisingly, I have a lot of people, obviously with my caseload, probably does not believe or, you know, in astrology in that way. And again, they have no problem letting me know. So one, it's the rapport. I hope I do a good job of making sure that my clients feel comfortable enough to tell me. I also hope that my clients understand that when I, you know, those first couple of sessions when I am like, before you even tell me your stuff, let me tell you who I am. And so now, you know, I start off by saying this, you know, I start off by saying I have a poly mindset. I start off by saying I'm an astrologer. I'm, you know, a holistic astrologer. I even with trauma, right. Some of there are some things where the way that we're trained, if you're a trauma informed therapist, you have a different view. And so just like I would have to give informed consent around that because it's going to come back up, right? As an attachment therapist, it's going to come back up again. That's why it's like, it's misleading. If I'm not telling you where I'm pulling these things from and my clients just respected me more for it. You know, they might say like, I didn't do it, but like, it doesn't help you help me. A lot of times I would also say, well, let me explain it to you in this way. Take what you need and leave the rest. And so there are some people that I would go through their charts and their natal chart, and then it'll be like, huh, Wow. I didn't believe in this stuff, but there's something to it. And so I tell people it's just like a personality test. If you take it, it's just like any other assessment. You don't have to believe in it one for it to be true. And you. If it helps you understand yourself, even if it helps you understand what you don't believe about yourself, it helps you name that. There's power in that as well. But the most part, it's just like me explaining to people, this is who I am. There are so many other therapists out there, and that was scary for me to say in the beginning, but there are so many other therapists out there. And, you know, again, when you're trying to get your license and you need those hours, I did not feel comfortable doing that. And I have guilt around that. Right. It's just realizing it's a part of the system. It's a part of the, like, hustle and bustle of, you know, to get my license so that I could be, you know, validated. But then realizing now, like, I think, goodness, I have the privilege that I don't have to do that. And I have a list of many wonderful therapists where it's like, if this. If I am not for you, right. You can go and see one of these people.
[00:29:54] Speaker C: Right. You don't have to be the perfect fit for everybody, just like we are in every relationship. Right. You're not perfectly aligned or have a relationship with everybody, but you can't keep tearing away at who you are and be this blank plate. It doesn't exist.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: Oh, that is probably, you know, one of the, like, top, you know, harmful concepts that I would say, like, as a therapist, that we're taught, like, one that we don't have an opinion, you know, we don't have an identity community. And I'll honestly tell you, a lot of it came from seeing a lot of, like, Christian therapists that could name themselves as Christian therapists.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: Then that gave you permission to start naming.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like, all you can do, you can grow it.
[00:30:33] Speaker C: Yeah, why can't I do that with astrology? Why can't. That's so valid.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. That's it. Now, that's, again, still scary because we understand that there are some norms and when you are a part of the majority, you have certain privileges and, you know, protections. And so now, again, like, as you stated, these things are kind of coming up and I think you and I were talking before, there's like a tarot workshop where you can get like CEUs. And I'm just like, okay, like on one hand, like, I love it, I'm here for it. On the other hand, I'm just like, you know, and so there's room for us all. I'll say that if we can not take this thing that has always been there and call it by a different name without honoring the origins where it comes from and. Or taking the soul out of it, sterilizing it and making it very cookie cutter.
[00:31:26] Speaker C: So that's where your, uh huh. Came from about the ceu. They're like, oh, good, it's getting validated. But then there's a little fear of is this going to become sanitized? Are we going to really honor where it comes from? Because it happens with so many things.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: We were talking about like how paramedics came to be in like the 1960s or 70s in Pittsburgh. This black organization basically started, you know, out delivering food and then they started delivering medical supplies. And then that led to, you know, this group of people training themselves to deliver emergency services. And it was amazing. They did, you know, so phenomenal. People from everywhere came to learn, you know, part of them. And then the mayor of that city is just like, oh, this is amazing. Right? We're going to take this system and we're going to bring it all the way to the top. That system now is literally how our, you know, in the US how our emergency paramedic services are. You know, that's the template. Many of us don't know that. And that's like, although that's hurtful, that's not the saddest part. The saddest part is those people that started an organization, like they wiped them out, fired them, and then put all white people in those same positions. Right? That's what I'm hoping we do not do.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: That's a great example. And I had no idea about that till you taught me that history. I'm so grateful for that knowledge. But yeah, look how bizarre. It's like a black organization started this. Now you're going to remove them from it completely. And likely black people learned how to do this because they were not given access to care. So they had to out of survival, had to learn how to do these very important survival strategies and actually took that, organized it and made it available to every. I mean, that's beautiful. That's amazing that they did that. And then they were cut away from it. And even till this day, they're being discriminated against from that exact system that they originated. Like that is, that's colonization. That's right there. And that happens in so many aspects. So I can see your hesitancy. If you see the astrology being. I mean, I see that, you know, with so many Indian practices, Yoga, I'm like, oh, you kind of took the heart out of it and now you're making it still into this Western concept of trying to get people to not slow down and get their body in a certain way.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: And you're taking very perfectionistic, you know, get, get, move, right? And. Oh yes, yes, that is, that's a great example. Yoga is another example of that. It's like it's naturally going to do those things, right? But it's really, you know, trying to get you to be more connected to your body, more integrated. And y'all are dissociating us. You're taking a connection out of it.
[00:34:00] Speaker C: So how do we do this? Because that's a beautiful concept that we want to honor these things. And I like how you think there's room for both. We don't want to come in and say, look, we got to go completely back to where we just listened to these spiritual practices and like, let's forget science. You know, there's a lot of wonderful things that making things research based and organized and evidence based in that process, like it creates a lot of standard norms that are effective and it's a wonderful thing. But we, how do we integrate the two? How do you integrate the two in a way that's honoring?
[00:34:31] Speaker A: That's what I'm trying to figure out now. That is what I'm passionate about now. That is what I want to teach, you know, the next again group of mental health professionals. And I've even like tried to figure that out. There's like certain schools that I feel like are trying to kind of do this now, kind of bringing in like the, like Carl Jung and trying to introduce the soul back into psychology. And again, we don't want to just kind of take everything back. You know, I really am a systems person. I do believe that every solution has a problem. I have experienced spiritual abuse before. I know firsthand what happens when you do not have boundaries, right? When you do not have rules, so to speak, when everything is subjective. You know, I am a scientist. I identify as a scientist. I will always keep that. I'm so grateful for, you know, what I've learned, right, as, as like a traditional you know, psychology or counselor. And I've also learned in my. My searching and in realizing, like, oof, my clients need more. And now I need to go. Like, I've done 20 years of study here. Now I gotta go try to catch up over here. And then, you know, I stumbled upon this ancestor constellation. You might hear it also called, like, family constellation workshops, where they are understanding the unconsciousness patterns and the psychological patterns between family dynamics. And I stumbled upon this workshop. So it's family dynamics, right? A family constellation. The person that I am learning under, you know, changed this word and brought it back to its roots and call it ancestor constellation. It'll feel like magic, right? It'll feel like, you know, there's no way this stuff is real, right? And I would say, like, I probably won't do it justice if I really explain it. I think it's Bert Helling. Hellinger. Hellinger is the one that brought it to, I would say the US but it was used a lot to help families, you know, that experience the Holocaust. It's, again, it feels magical in terms of being able to. When we talk about healing generational trauma from, like, you know, thinking about the ancestors and thinking about, you know, how our indigenous people was influenced and how they are actually still influencing us today, again, it's beautiful work. It is all over the world. And it was actually started or originated by the Zulu people in Africa. And so what's happening is like, I'm going. Alethea. Going to these different, you know, whether it's an astrology workshop, whether it's a intuitive workshop to kind of build my intuitive abilities. Stumbling upon this ancestor workshop where Nani is the facilitator. And I'm, you know, I'm listening to this person, you know, she's from London, and I'm just like, all right, I can definitely, like, give you her information because she's absolutely amazing. And I'm just like, wait, so how long have you, you know, been doing mental health? And she's like, I've never been trained as a mental health, you know, person. I was like, like, there's just no way you're using concepts and words that I have, like, took years to learn. And you're just doing it, right? These people have been doing this from the beginning, right? And so, again, you know, history has helped me accept these things about myself. When I think about who was the one that. Who are the people that was in charge of mental health? It was the sages, it was the oracles, right? It was the spiritual leaders. They were responsible for that community. They were responsible for the mind, body and spirit. And I understand understanding, hearing the stories of why that got kind of sucked out. Why there's been a lot of rules and we've kind of dissociated and fragmented. However, though, even in our own field, we are fragmenting from social workers and psychologists to, you know, therapists. It's just like, I don't agree with you. Let's call it a different name. I don't know if that's the way to do it anymore. And so I would say the privilege of us understanding and being able to look where we are right now and see the history. What we can do right now is see what works, see what does not work and understand that that question, we will constantly come back to that question. That's what astrology teaches us. I know a lot of people, they're just like, well, I'm my sign and this is who I am. And they think that that's what astrology is like. No, no, no, no, no. You're supposed to be progressing. You're supposed to, you know, evolve. Right. You're supposed to take the shadow sides to that sign and constantly be working on them for the rest of your life. And so what I think that's what we should be doing. We need to go back and look at who started some of these theories, who was studying by some of these theories, you know, these theories, like who was it serving and then realizing it wasn't people that look like you and I. And so I realized that's why it wasn't working for the people that I was working with. And so it's like, let's take what works, but let's also come back and take some of these principles that's been there for ages that still works. And let's find a way to do this in a still evidence based way.
[00:39:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I like how you're saying that. Because there's room for both. You don't want to completely overcorrect and go back and you're saying there can be spiritual harm there when there's no objectivity, but when you step into this place of just everything so objective and black and white.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Yes. If I can't prove it, it's not real. You know, it's like, oh, that's not actually true either. And let's be real. That's not what's happening. You guys are, you know, doing that. I think I shared with you. I was in the training and they were just, they're describing this and this is someone that I respect. I would take this person's training and over again, and they're just describing this, and, you know, they're pointing here. They're showing a picture of the human body, and they're like, you know, the limpic resonance. The limpic resonance system. And I'm just. The third eye. Is that. Excuse me. Like that. That. You know, we've been calling it that for the longest. Thank you now for validating that. I'm so grateful that science has now come up and tried to validate something that you could not explain. And let's also honor this. The fact that there have been people that have been using this word for a long time that you have shamed and told them that it wasn't true. Let's come back and correct that. Right? There's. That's. That Jedi work. Like, we have to go back before we can do the diversity, the equity and the inclusion. You have to go back to justice. And so I think even in spirituality, you know, I. I'm very passionate about, like, social justice spirituality. Right. Like, we have to go back and do the justice work around spirituality because we have taken things in my field and we are not honoring where they came from.
[00:40:46] Speaker C: Can you really expand on this? Because this is. That's a huge important point of why is it important to do the justice work and why we need to have that as an add on and what's the harm done when we kind of try to skip over that and just try to create this appearance of diversity or inclusion?
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I mean, one of my favorite courses to teach is social justice. And so, you know, one of the things that I've learned is. How do I say this? It's like you're trying to tell a person how much they owe you without actually going back to get an account for how much they owe you. Right? And so it's just like, yeah, you know, here's this loan, and I'm going to forgive this loan. It's like, okay, great, let's forgive the loan. But how do you know what you're actually forgiving? And, hey, I get it. Who wants to go back? I can tell you right now there's some, like, reconciling of my finances that I need to do for March. I don't want to do that. Right. It hurts to go back time and time and. And put yourself back there. Like, our body sometimes resists that again, we feel those things. Right? Like, our body's always right. And how can I actually forgive something without really knowing what I'm forgiving, what's going to happen is that we're going to repeat those things. We're seeing it now, right? We're going to repeat those things when we just leave clicky crumbs there. When you leave, things like insects are going to come in and kind of get there. Like you're going to have a back kind of problem. Every solution has a problem. And so when we don't really fully take an account of what was lost, are stolen, you're likely to repeat it again and you're likely to. You know, we think about why they tell you take all of your antibiotics, right? Like, even if you feel better, finish taking your antibiotics because you're still leaving some germs there, right? And if you don't, it's going to multiply. Even if you can't see it, you.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: Can'T rush past it. I like that analogy with the loan. Because if you're just saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I know I owe you, let me just hurry up and pay you back, you're doing it to just appease the other person and make that debt go away. But you're not really sitting with the stock of, wait, what do I owe you? What was the cost of you being in debt for that long and what was the debt? And then I can really repay you?
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Yes, I didn't really repay you. And. Or maybe you don't hurt that person again, right? You've learned that. But you might then take another loan from somebody else and do the same thing, right? So now you're just hurting people all over, not realizing, you know, hey, like, I gave you that money, I gave you that money for a certain amount of time. I wasn't expecting you to keep it that long.
[00:43:16] Speaker C: All right?
[00:43:16] Speaker A: Or me having to like, hound you to come and get that. Have you ever had to experience that before? It doesn't feel good, right?
[00:43:23] Speaker C: I mean, we, we do this work all the time. When we do attachment injury repair, when do a fair work with people, it's like, wait, wait, wait. You can't just say sorry for what you're doing. Can you sit in the shoes of the harm that you created and feel it in your body and really understand what that other person went through, then you won't do the harm again.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: The wisdom is there, right? There's wisd. And that guilt allows you to not actually repeat that shame, right? You're likely to identify with it in a way that you're likely, you know, you're going to repeat that and so many times even I can say, like, we shame people for the harm that we've done. Right? We've shamed people for racism, we've shamed people for colonization. And I mean, we've seen how that has worked thus far. I don't think it's working. I don't think we're going to get there. Right? But if we sit in that discomfort with them, if we allow them to actually see, like, hey, you hurt me. You know, like, let's share this burden together. We know that when we share the burden together, it physically impacts how it impacts us, right? Like, there's like a shared version of it that doesn't cause so much trauma when you share that together. Right. We think that we're perfect or we think sometimes because we are the people that, like, have been oppressed, but, you know, hurt people, hurt people. And when you are always pointing the finger and when you've never had to, like, you know, sit under that cherry tree yourself, it's very easy to just kind of shame people for, like, what they did wrong.
[00:44:49] Speaker C: Guilty of that myself. But yeah, that makes sense. And the same coming from a valid place, right? Because it's like, ugh, this pain is so big. I want you to experience that. It's coming from a yearning of wanting to do what you said so brilliantly of like, we want, want to experience this together so we can lift out of it together. But the shame is just tossing it back and forth.
[00:45:06] Speaker A: That's your problem. That's not my problem. It's your problem. You did this and I did this, and it's like, again, like you said, we have good reasons for it, but it's just. It just doesn't help.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: And again, it feels similar to what you've been talking about earlier, too. Just a really slowing down. A lot of this growth comes from that slowing down. Can we sit with that pain? Can we not try to shame it and throw it out on somebody else or bypass it in this way or that way? If we really sit with it, with that curiosity and honor it and understand.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: That we don't always know the answer. It's like, how many times you and I have had difficult conversations with people that we love and they're like, what could I do? Not that. Like, you can't fix that, right?
[00:45:41] Speaker C: And if you try to fix it so quickly, you're bypassing it. Can we really sit in the discomfort alone? Like you said earlier for yourself, you had to sit with it even when your gifts were downloading and you like crazy, like, Oh, I still got to sit with it. I don't want to run with it right now. And can we do that in community? Can we do that in relationship? When discomfort hits, can we just sit with it?
[00:46:01] Speaker A: Yes. And I think we do that all the time. I think some. Many of us, whether you're put in a situation or not, I definitely, as someone that saw myself as, like, you know, an expert in Jedi, and I would, like, give a lot of solutions, right? If we're using attachment language, like, you know, I definitely would give, you know, as the fixer, I would give you all these things. Do this, do this, do this, and you should do this and put this in your PowerPoint and you should say this, and then they would do it. And I'm like, that's not it. Like, it doesn't feel good. But then you put the other person in a situation to where it's like, if you've been in a relationship, like, everything I do is not working right. It's like, nothing works. And so I get that. And I think we are also doing that on a macro level around a lot of these issues. We're just throwing things out there when we need to just slow down and realize how we got here.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: So true. And this is something that, you know, our good friend Kriti, who been on the show, too, has taught me, and I'm still learning because I have a fixer and tell everybody the answers that I just learned yesterday. But sometimes there's hopelessness in that and sitting with it, and that's not a bad thing because it's an honoring of how big that discomfort.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: If shame work, like, that's where it would be appropriately, right? Like, the hopelessness of this is so messy. How did we get here? How? You know, when you think about the Holocaust, when you think about, you know, Slave was like, oh, that's so mess. Like, how did we get here? There's just a hopelessness in that, and that alone makes you not want to do that again. At least I hope, right? When you can just sit with, like, hey, there could be something in your future that you can never fix, you will never be able to repay. There's not enough reparation in the entire globe right in this galactic system to do to repay that debt, that alone can allow us or hope to, like, make a difference. Slow down.
[00:47:45] Speaker C: Slow down. When it feels uncomfortable, just slow down and sit in it. So much wisdom from you today. I'm so grateful for everything. I know there's, like, 30 different aspects we can go into after this. But I really do appreciate your wisdom and this is your way to articulate these things. Has helped me out so many times. If you had a takeaway from today's conversation, one piece that you wanted to have people hold on to, what would that be?
[00:48:10] Speaker A: So I'm a traditionalist, right? Like, I have this cancer energy, and it's in, like, it's in the 11th house. And so some astrologers don't necessarily subscribe to this, but it's like some of us believe that every house kind of has a zodiac sign that, like, rules that energy, right? So if you think of the 11th House as being like Aquarian energy, very innovative, very rebellious, you know, energy. So you have this, like, traditional sign in this, like, non traditional house. What I would say is, remember that, like, at one point we thought the world was flat. At one point, you know, dinosaurs were ruling the earth and we didn't think that they exist. We have to go back and check what we believe, you know, particularly right now, you know, Venus is in retrograde, Mercury's in retrograde. Like, this is the time where we're supposed to be going back to, like, review what we believe. And don't be afraid to let those things go. You know, I mean, again, as a spiritualist, I have changed so much. And I'm not saying that that work is easy. It is hard. You have to ask yourself hard questions, right? You know, it might be tearful, you know, there's grief that you may have to work through. But just remember that, like, you might have to go back and evolve and change that belief. And that is actually how we progress. It's when we hold on to these things that just was always true or we always did it that way. And that's why we continue stuff. Don't, don't be afraid to evolve and change and then find your people, right, that align with you to. So you're in that change that you want to be.
[00:49:39] Speaker C: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: This is so great. I really appreciate this.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: Oh, also, just where do people. Where can people find you?
[00:49:47] Speaker A: Yes, so you can find me on. On Instagram, Sage H C W. My website is Sage S A G E H C w dot com. You can find me on Instagram, Facebook there. I do newsletters, blogs, NATO charts, all the things. But yeah, thank you.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Join the movement and keep the conversation
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